Since the Whiskey blog came online back in January of this year I have been wondering how much effect it would have on the value of the western fifth. By that statement I mean will all the hype and discussions about certain whiskies make them more desirable and thus more valuable?
Seems to me that question is being answered almost daily on ebay. Take for example the Circle Cutter (Thomas 43) that just closed on ebay last week. Described as "real nice olive amber colored glass" and "There's a lot of green in this one boys" sold for a whopping $496.00.
That's, in my opinion, about $300 more then it would have sold for before January of this year.
Do ya think the old whiskey blog influenced the price of that "olive" fifth?
Also on ebay this week is a Teakettle fifth with a starting price of $850.00. The Teakettle is one of the most desirable "common" western fifths out there and this example has yet to receive a bid. Teakettle's, right now at 
shows, are being offered in the $800 - $1500 range, depending on crudity. Why hasn't this bottle received a bid? The seller says it has "a pinpoint size stone with 2 microscopic tails". I for one, do not believe that this manufacturing flaw is the reason it doesn't have an opening bid. Heck, the Teakettle has yet to be posted or discussed on the WESTERN GLOB TOP WHISKEY site. All it would take is just a small post on the site and a few comments and this bottle could go through the roof.
shows, are being offered in the $800 - $1500 range, depending on crudity. Why hasn't this bottle received a bid? The seller says it has "a pinpoint size stone with 2 microscopic tails". I for one, do not believe that this manufacturing flaw is the reason it doesn't have an opening bid. Heck, the Teakettle has yet to be posted or discussed on the WESTERN GLOB TOP WHISKEY site. All it would take is just a small post on the site and a few comments and this bottle could go through the roof.Another Circle Cutter listed on the bay (Thomas 44?) closing on Monday the 16th is sitting at $185. Described as "Killer Light Honey-Amber Color with some nice transitional shades of medium to light amber throughout (as seen in the pictures). Decent whittle, solid strike, crude mold seams, and a nice overall example of sparklematic Western-blown glass! Nice applied top featuring a crude dip in the glass along the top of the ridge". With a day left of bidding I
would imagine this bottle will go way over $200.
would imagine this bottle will go way over $200. The only thing that bothers me about this bottle is the palm trees in the background. For some reason my mind does not put together the old wild west whiskey fifths with palm trees. I know, its me, but I just can't get by this.
And then there is The Bottle Vault. A Circle Cutter ( Thomas ?) he had listed on ebay just sold to some gambler for a hefty $260. His pictures and description of the bottle left a little to be desired: "You are bidding on an old and authentic nice amber glass handblown Gloppy Top J. H. CUTTER OLD BOURBON whiskey bottle, from A P HOTALING & CO SOLE AGENTS (of SF CAL). This classic Western Whiskey bottle stands 12" high". No mention if its a 2 or 4 piece mold or if it has A No1 on the reverse. Pretty sketchy description for this old collector to lay out $260.
If you are looking for that special western fifth its time to bite the bullet and shell out the cash. Waiting until after it hits the whiskey blog, as a post, is only going to cost you more of your hard earned money. "There's a lot of green in this one boys"
I do not think this blog has anything to do with the sale price of that JH. The price has more to do with collectors that can't dig a bottle and thus inflate prices, and a sellers description of colors. The bottle looked plain, with an average strike, and a touch of olive.
ReplyDeleteI saw the same bottle only slightly deeper color change hands at the Federation show in Reno for $1000. Color is king as you rarely ever see these with any color, it looked like a nice bottle. I think eBay has a little better exposure than the blog but if G.O.s theroy holds true that Club House will set a new worlds record. I myself would rather have something not so rare in a more pleasing color than the House.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI guess you are talking about the Cutter that Leisalu (Thomas # 43 ) sold for $496. I haven't seen that bottle in person so I can't comment on color, embossing or condition.
I can comment on your reason for the increased value of these bottles.
It is estimated that there are over 400 circle Cutter's in collections, and I believe that's a low estimate. If you do not believe that this blog has anything to do with the current value of these bottles, you had better wake up & smell the coffee.
g.o.
Hmm. I attempted to post a rather legthy diatribe concerning the T-43, but it was disallowed for some reason and lost in translation. I won't bother another one.
ReplyDeleteBottles do what bottles do. End of story.
Interesting to see the arrogance, and condecending comments sometimes made on this site. Some in this hobby take it so seriously that I am amazed there is any enjoyment left for them.I truly love the history of the Western whiskeys, but they are not something I take so seriously that I would look down on someone for not "worshiping" the sacred Clubhouse, or not digging a hole with 500 Cutters. Now there is potentially a "diatribe" about a friggen Cutter for cryin out loud. It is a bottle. A whiskey bottle. Now I know why almost 20 years ago I just lost interest in whiskeys. It was the utter snobbish, and arrogant attitude of some of the whiskey guys. I see the post saying people who cannot dig, pay high prices.That is what I mean. How completely rude. I know some extremely knowlegable long time collectors who have told me how disgusted they became with the politics, and pure arrogance of some whiskey guys...their spouses even noticed it in THEIR attitudes. Why look down on someone because they have not dug everything known to man? Some of us do not live where every hole has potential to have killer Western stuff in it. Where I live, and have dug for 27 years, I have only dug 3 glob fifths, a Spruance Stanley, a Lilienthal small crown, and a glob "bottled by" I have had to drive thousands of miles, and spent thousands of dollars to travel to where there is a chance to dig something good. I guess I am not a "superdigger God", but have had to buy the good stuff. Sometimes I pay too much, and other times I pay very little, but if I bought an olive tone circle Cutter for $200, and drove 6 hours each way to get it, and paid for a hotel and food, that bottle probably cost me $750. If I could find one on ebay from a reputable collector, and pay less, but it is a nice one, that is what I will do.I guess that is looked down upon? Geeeez have an open mind rather than get all worked up over a circle Cutter ( I guess I am too though, but it is not over the bottle, but about the attitudes) At the end of the day, I will chase a killer Millers flask, or AAA Old Valley with wicked character, and smile.I love bitters too, and have some decent examples...oh oh, I discussed a bottle that should not be on this site? I am sorry. I also love meds, and even Western ammonias. I have one rule...if my heart rate rises when holding a bottle, I will pretty much do whatever it takes to get it. If I do not get that flutter, I do not care if is one known, and everyone else considers it sacred, I will pass.It is a fun hobby after all, and I am surprised that the handful of new guys (they are all great guys) have developed such a passion for the hobby...I am sure digging in Northern Cal, and finding some great stuff helps. They are our future. We need more of them. Chastising someone for buying a Cutter at a high price is not the way to show how valued they are.Now..where is my checkbook?
ReplyDeleteWho was chastising whom? I happen to really love that "cheezy" bottle. Heck, I have a few of 'em and would very much like to add more. If the color of the recent eBay one wasn't here, some serious bidding would've happened from this end. Sure, I have been fortunate enough to dig my share of them and can very well remember not being able to pass the spares on for a paltry 25-40 bucks a pop. Glady, times have changed in the past couple dozen years, and the old Circles are now respected. The word "diatribe" was used primarily to take a poke at the "naysayers" and those whose attitudes display negative feelings for this "lowly" western fifth.
ReplyDeleteIs $475 too much to pay for a T-43? Whose to say? Look at that bottle. You get a LOT of glass for the buck with that one. The buyer is very happy to add that gem to his shelf, you can bet your bippy on that.
I wanted to post a shot of my "Olive, with a hint of green" example, but somehow Photobucket pics can't translate to this blog and I know of no other method to do so.
Cool your checkbook, ME. There will be more to come forth. I am aware of a few "good 'ol boys" who might just be hangin' to a Circle Cutter, or two.
Boy, I go away on business for a wk and you guys are at each other's throats !
ReplyDeleteI recommend you all take a double shot of A No 1 and re-evaluate!
AP
Yeah!! I agree with M.E. to much arrogance, and not just by whiskey guys, the bitters group isnt any better, nor is the historic flask guys. just proves that there are snobs in every hobby, I wont even mention car collectors, they are the worst. But!!! I love going to all the shows and talking to the whiskey guys who sell at them, I have only met one guy who was snobbish, and he is on this blog. Anyways this is a great hobby, and we have some goood collectors out there who will give good advice and help the new ones. so nuff said, lets all take a drink and chill....Andy
ReplyDeleteBTW the cutter with the palm trees behind it has a flake of glass off the dripp under the lip, according to the description, so After the bottle that sold for $496.00 the bottle vault bottle which is perfect selling for $260.00 is a bargain, now that these bottles are gaining some some rarity. mostly because there are so many people out there who want one now, and we all cant dig a hole with 500 cutters in it, BOY!! that would be fun wouldnt it!!another two cents worth....
ReplyDeleteI think only a true collector can look beyond the wording on a bottle to be able to appreciate the real beauty of it no matter how little or much
ReplyDeleteit may be worth. There are some low end bottles in my collection that are killer specimens that I get more wound up over than some of the more rare plainer bottles. Bottles I've dug, bottles with a story or ones with interesting history all account for a personal value I would place on it which may mean nothing to someone else. Circle Cutters & Star Shields are great bottles, their some of my favorites and it's a good day any time you can bag one of them. They have all the characteristics some of us like in early Western bottle glass and their affordable too. To say that collectors who can't dig a bottle pay inflated prices is just ludicrous. Obviously someone is clueless as to how hard it is to even dig a Circle Cutter now days or know what diggers pay for these bottles.
I agree with GoldenPlantation 100%. I'll add, that in my opinion it costs more to dig them than buy them when you factor in time, skill, labor,gas, tools, etc... But, that's not why we do it, as everyone knows the thrill of unearthing an embossed fifth is just simply.... priceless !
ReplyDeleteJust Priceless!! You got that rite AP the only blob top whiskey type bottle I ever dug is a Valentine Hassieurs lung and cough syrup, looks just like a western whiskey fifth!! got it out of a hole in Stockton 40 years ago when the old downtown was torn down. Now I just buy bottles because there is not many places left to dig. every once in awhile I will find a good bottle ina store or shop or someplace else that is worth pickin up. So again diggin a fifth would be Priceless!!.Andy
ReplyDeleteNOt any places to dig!?? Au contrere, my friend, there are PLENTY of places to dig. How else would many of us do it every week end? It takes research, research, research, and them talking the PO into allowing you, a perfect stranger, to enter their property and dig a big pit. The answer is not often in the affirmative, but the margin is better than 50% on the positive side. Gone are the days of walking onto construction sites and vacant lots and popping a hole. It's a whole new ball game out there. Just a bit more difficult, but still available for those who are willing to work at it.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, the difference between the bottle sold on eBay for $496 and the BV example is profound. While basically "similar", both being a 4-piece mold, the sold bottle is from the first mold(T-43) and therefore much more desireable. The other is a slightly later mold(T-44) with A NO 1 on the rear shoulder, a bottle that is seen most often. Not exactly the same bottle, so your comparison is not valid. Please do not label me "arrogant" for pointing out this commonly made assumption, as that is certainly NOT my intent.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI bought Lottos tickets for the first year and then...No hablar español, por favor, Señor. No gold and silver teeth, no interpreter, and all those requirements. Anywho, I quit that nonsense. Call me a waaaambulance, I'll take my chances with a shovel, probe, and a couple yards of dirt. There're more "winners" down there, below the topsoil.
ReplyDeleteMillers Extra, stop bitching and get your ass down to the hood and maybe you'll eventually dig some good bottles !
ReplyDelete$550 for a damaged JF but the ClubHouse is still at only 20 ???? Whats going on here.........
ReplyDeleteWell put OC...by a man that knows his Cutters !
ReplyDeleteAP
I think maybe G.O. has been in the woods a little to long. I've seen two of these bottles sell on eBay in the last couple of years for just a little under 500 (Quinn & Oakeson) Both were dark amber with no olive.
ReplyDeleteI've had a busy couple of weeks, just enough time to throw a few bottles on ebay and pick up a couple in exchange....
ReplyDeleteThe Sole Agent Circle Cutter that Leisalou sold on eBay went higher than I expected. However, it was problem-free, had a good story to go along with it, and the KEY was in its COLOR (the EXCEPTIONAL pictures also never hurt)! It appeared to be just a click or two more towards an olive old-amber than plain old-amber, but most of us know that each shade closer towards the olive and green colorations make a big difference in rarity and price. A decent example of an Amber Sole Agent Circle Cutter normally seems to sell in the $150-$250 range, right? So if you simply double the higher end of that price range you get somewhere in the neighborhood of $496. Look at it this way, The one Leisalou sold was a top-end example, definitely worth the price of two average examples. Think of it as trading two average amber examples for a really nice olive-amber example. Seems that it sold for a firm, yet reasonable price. Nonetheless, a solid pick-up for Millers Extra.
As for my Palm-Tree photos...I apologize for not flying all the way up to the bay area just to take a more "fitting picture" of my bottles with the golden gate or something more "western" in the background. Sorry I had to settle for the pinner backyard photos...haha ;)
My palm tree photos ended up costing me I guess, since I originally paid $225 for that exact bottle at the San Luis Obispo show in 2008. I thought this Whiskey Blog is responsible for an increase in pricing...Huh?? My first-hand experience tells me that this blog has ZERO to do with the prices of whiskies on ebay, auctions, or at shows. Note: After paying my fees to ebay and paypal, I'll be taking a $60 hit on that bottle...Once again, a good-priced purchase for a bidder who has his pulse on the good deals in the bottle market.
It all goes in strides though, as I was able to pick up a near exact match to the $496 Circle Cutter at the Pomona Show for only $200. Mine appears to have another dose of olive in it, but also has a small onion skin, minor crush mark, and some light scratches here and there. It just goes to show, that one "SALE PRICE" doesn't necessarily "SET" the price.
And what's up with the California Clubhouse selling for just $27k? Isn't that less than the selling-owner originally paid for it? The Top Western Fifth makes its first debut at auction and peters out before $30k??? Seems odd...
ReplyDeleteNow let's talk about a ridiculous auction sales price....How about the Green E.L. Billing's Soda going for an otherworldly $3,200 plus auction fee, CA Sales Tax (if CA Resident), S&H + Ins. = almost $4,000?!?!? I'm sure glad I picked my example up a few years ago for only $300. The one in the auction was an exceptional example (I was able to see it in-person at the Pomona show), but I was expecting it to sell for about $750. The tough-colored Western sodas are beginning to go out of control. So I guess it would be an opportune time for me to dump the color runs of Owen Caseys, Empires, Bay Cities, etc. and use that money to pick up some under-priced fifths. There's a few entry level glob fifths (older Cutters and Star Shileds) as well as some of the Top Tiered Fifths (Cassins, Suits, 2 Name Bears) that seem real strong in price right now, but 90% of all the other Western fifths in the mid-range seem very soft in price...
Here's my synopsis of the What's Hot, What's Not list:
HOT: Tough to find Colored Western Sodas, Mint condition Western pontiled sodas, Local Drugstore Bottles, early Western Beers (especially the rare Quarts from S.F.), early Western Bitters, and colored Schnapps. The Whiskey blog, Warren Frederich's upcoming bitters book, Bay area digging. LL's ebay pictures....
NOT: Many of the Western Flasks, Most Western Fifths, Western Meds, aqua Western sodas (unless they are very rare), hutches, gins. Cerro Gordo, pictures of Western fifths with palm trees in the background, Red-amber German fifths, tooled-top fifths, ABD-ed holes, SoCal's soil conditions, and ripping on each other on this blog site.
This blog is AWESOME! It is very informational and good for those of us who like to share our stories, thoughts, and ideas. Once again, I think it has virtually little to nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay for a whiskey bottle.
Most of us are good friends, and those of us who aren't probably don't know each other well enough yet, but will become good friends over time. We need to be a bit more supportive of each other in this hobby than we currently are....It is dying more and more with each new generation. So let's do all we can to encourage each other's efforts and keep the thrill of digging and collecting alive.
Very well put J.F.! Thank you for your view and positive input on this site !
ReplyDeleteAP
J.F Extra,
ReplyDeleteI an not agreeing with you but I think your comment was well thought out & well written
g.o.
Oh, and by the way, the clubhouse did set a world record. It was the most ever paid for a clubhouse at auction.
ReplyDeleteg.o.
I nearly choked when I saw the final on that Billings. I have dug super fine examples of that very same shade, so maybe that one is one of them, yet I never got mere than $225 for any of them. Call me arrogant, I kinda like the term. Back in "the day" it was nothing to dig 50 Billings. We used to throw the aquas against a brick building wall 'cause nome of us wanted to bring that "junk" home. Only colored sodas need apply. I remember a space between two Old Sacramento buildings that had 6' of ash and over 200 sodas in it. They had to have come from one building because there were no windows on the adjoining wall. At least half were aqua Billings. Those stayed there. The others were a mix of O. Caseys, C&Ks, and some KILLER colors of P.Caducs. That's where the first weird teal colored ones came from. No "foreign" bottles were in that mix, all were Sackamennas.
ReplyDelete